OMG! You have to read this! We are too late to prevent being taken over by fascists, but what can we do? First, there's a history of what's happened before, then there are some suggestions for solutions, then there is the discussion. Read it! The author of the piece itself seems to be Chris Armitage.
--Kim
Sara's Post
I may have misunderstood this, but I think Poland elected a fascist government just a few years back, and un-elected it just a couple years later. They walked up to the edge, looked over, then turned and walked away. That may be the exception he's looking for.
I've been playing with secession scenarios for over a decade, and think what he's discussing is The Way. Newsom gets the legislature to pass a law saying that Californians still file their federal taxes with the IRS -- but the actual revenue gets sent to the state franchise tax board, which holds it in a special escrow account. Newsom can use this account as leverage in getting what he wants out of Trump. "The IRS gets this month's revenue when ICE and your federal goons are out of our state. And the money stops instantly if they ever come back." "Ooops -- fire season. We need this money for disaster relief, since FEMA's dead. Nothing for you this month, sorry." And so on.
The law enabling this would enact penalties against taxpayers who sent $$$ to the IRS anyway. Trump would try to make examples of some of them, but his real legal beef would be with the state. Since they can't prosecute 40 million people, individual taxpayers would be largely protected.
CA doing this would embolden other states. And yes, increasingly large and strong interstate compacts are definitely an important tool here, as are independent alliances with outside countries.
Gavin may be just a really great troll. Or he may be exactly the leader America needs in this moment, the one who takes California by the wheel and drives it toward America's better future, towing the rest of the country behind us (as has so often happened before). If he's got the guts, this could be the best, most peaceful way out of this mess.
"In 1933, German conservatives thought they could control Hitler. Two years later, they were being executed in their own homes. I spent weeks researching this question, desperately looking for counter-examples, for hope, for any time in history where people successfully stopped fascists after they started winning elections.
Here's what I found: Once fascists win power democratically, they have never been removed democratically. Not once. Ever.
I know that sounds impossible. I kept digging, thinking surely someone, somewhere, stopped them. The actual record is so much worse than you think.
Let's start with Germany because everyone thinks they know this story. Franz von Papen, the conservative politician who convinced President Hindenburg to make Hitler Chancellor, said 'We've hired him' in January 1933. He thought he was so clever. Within 18 months, the Nazis were machine-gunning von Papen's allies in their homes during the Night of Long Knives. Von Papen himself barely escaped to Austria with his life. Every single conservative who thought they could 'control' or 'moderate' Hitler was either dead, in exile, or groveling for survival by 1934.
Italy was even dumber, if that's possible. October 1922, Mussolini announces he's marching on Rome with 30,000 blackshirts. Except here's the thing: they were poorly armed, disorganized, and the Italian military could have crushed them in about three hours. The King had his generals ready. He had martial law papers drawn up. The military was waiting for the order. Instead, he invited Mussolini to form a government. Just handed him power. Twenty-three years later, partisans hung Mussolini's corpse upside down at a gas station while crowds beat it with sticks. The king died in exile. Hundreds of thousands of Italians died for that moment of cowardice.
Spain might be the worst because everyone saw it coming. Three years of escalating fascist violence. Actual assassination attempts. Then in 1936, Franco and his generals launch a straight-up military coup. The Spanish Republic begged for help. France said "not our problem." Britain said 'both sides are bad.' America declared neutrality. The result? Franco ruled for 39 years. He died peacefully in his bed in 1975. They're still finding mass graves in Spain. Still. In 2025.
Want something more recent? Look at Hungary. Orbán won democratically in 2010. By 2011 he'd rewritten the constitution. By 2012 he controlled the media. By 2013 he'd gutted the judiciary. It's 2025 and he's still in power. The EU has been 'very concerned' for fourteen fucking years. They've written strongly worded letters. They've held meetings. Hungary is now a one-party state in the middle of Europe and everyone just...accepts it.
Okay, but surely someone, somewhere, stopped them?
Finland 1932 is the only clean win I can find. The fascist Lapua Movement tried an armed coup before they'd secured government power. The military stayed loyal to democracy, crushed the rebellion, and banned the movement. That's it. That's the success story. One time out of roughly fifty attempts, fascists were stopped because they were stupid enough to try violence before winning elections.
France in 1934 looked like a victory for about five minutes. Fascist leagues tried to storm parliament on February 6th. Six days later, twelve million workers went on general strike. Twelve million. The entire country stopped. No trains, no factories, no shops, nothing. The fascists backed down. Great victory, right? Except those exact same fascists enthusiastically collaborated when the Nazis invaded six years later. They just waited.
Portugal's fascist regime finally fell in 1974. After 48 years. How? Military officers launched a coup. Democratic resistance had been crushed for five decades. International pressure meant nothing. The dictator Salazar died in 1970 and his successor just kept going until the military said enough. That's your success story: wait half a century and hope the military gets tired.
The pattern is so consistent it's almost funny if it weren't so terrifying. Every single time it goes like this: Conservatives panic about socialism or progressives or whatever. They ally with fascists as the 'lesser evil.' Fascists take power. Fascists immediately purge the conservatives who helped them. Then it's 30-50 years of dictatorship. This happened in Germany, Italy, Spain, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Greece, Portugal, Croatia, Romania, and Hungary.
Want to know how many times conservatives successfully 'controlled' the fascists they allied with? Zero. Want to know how many times fascists purged the conservatives after taking power? All of them. Every single time.
And here's the part that breaks your heart. Violence works. For them. Fascists use violence while claiming to be victims. They create chaos that 'requires' their authoritarian solution. Then they purge anyone who opposes them. Meanwhile, democrats keep insisting on following rules that fascists completely ignore. They file lawsuits. They write editorials. They vote on resolutions. And fascists just laugh and keep consolidating power.
The statistics are brutal. Fascist takeovers prevented after winning power democratically: zero. Average length of fascist rule once established: 31 years. Fascist regimes removed by voting: zero. Fascist regimes removed by asking nicely: zero. Most were removed by war or military coups, and tens of millions died in the process.
I'm not allowed to make the obvious contemporary comparisons, but you're already making them in your head. 'We can control him' is being said right now, in 2025, by people who apparently never cracked a history book.
Based on the historical record, there are exactly three ways this goes. Option one: Stop them before they take power. Option two: War. Option three: Wait for them to die of old age.
But here's the thing: we already missed our chance. The window isn't closing; it's closed.
The Supreme Court declared Trump above the law. He's threatening to arrest political opponents. He's already sent the FBI after elected officials when they haven't committed crimes. Congress is his. Most state governments are his. Billionaire oligarchs openly coordinate with him. The window slammed shut.
So let's stop pretending we're in the 'prevention' phase and start talking about what you do when fascists already control the institutions but haven't fully consolidated power yet. Because historically, nobody's been here before, not like this.
No wealthy democracy with nuclear weapons has ever fallen to fascism. The 1930s examples everyone cites were broken countries. Weimar Germany was weakened by World War I and hyperinflation. Italy was barely industrialized. Spain was largely agrarian. They didn't have the world's reserve currency. They didn't have thousands of nukes. They didn't have surveillance technology that would make the Stasi weep with envy.
America has all of that. Plus geographic isolation that makes external intervention impossible. Plus a population where 30-40% genuinely wants authoritarian rule as long as it hurts the 'right people.' The historical playbook is useless here. We're in unprecedented territory.
But that also means the old rules about what's possible might not apply.
Option 1: The Blue State Coalition
California's economy is bigger than the UK's. New York controls global finance. The blue states collectively represent over 60% of America's GDP. They could, theoretically, make the federal government irrelevant.
Imagine if California, Oregon, Washington, New York, Massachusetts, and others started coordinating directly. Ignoring federal mandates. Creating their own interstate compacts for everything from climate policy to civil rights. They already started this with climate agreements when Trump pulled out of Paris. But I'm talking about going much further.
State-level cryptocurrency to avoid federal monetary control. State-funded healthcare systems that ignore federal restrictions. State-level immigration policies that simply refuse to cooperate with ICE. Make the federal government have to physically enforce every single policy, stretching their resources to breaking.
The precedent? The way Northern states nullified fugitive slave laws in the 1850s. The way states are currently ignoring federal marijuana prohibition. But coordinated and comprehensive.
Option 2: Selective Compliance and Irish Democracy
The Irish called it 'Irish Democracy' when they were under British rule, the silent, dogged resistance of millions who simply ignored laws they found illegitimate. Don't protest. Don't riot. Just don't comply.
Red states need blue state money. Blue state taxes fund red state governments. What if millions of people in blue states simultaneously decided to claim exempt on their W-4s and simply... stopped paying federal taxes? Not as protest but as a coordinated 'forgetting.' Overwhelm the IRS. Make enforcement impossible.
Doctors in blue states could ignore abortion restrictions. Teachers could ignore curriculum mandates. State police could refuse to enforce federal laws. Not dramatically, just... incompetently. 'Sorry, we couldn't find them.' 'The paperwork got lost.' 'Our systems are down.'
Make every single act of authoritarian control require physical enforcement, then make that enforcement impossibly expensive and difficult.
Option 3: Secession
We already have two incompatible visions of what America should be. One side wants a multi-ethnic democracy with a social safety net. The other wants a white Christian ethnostate with unlimited corporate power. These cannot coexist indefinitely.
What if blue states started seriously discussing secession? Not threatened as political theater but actually planned. Constitutional conventions. Referendums. Negotiations for national debt division. Military base transfers. Currency agreements.
Yes, the last time states tried to leave it caused a civil war. But that was over slavery, with clearly defined geographic boundaries and two relatively equal economic systems. This would be the economic powerhouses leaving the welfare states. What would the red states do, invade California? With what money?
The mere serious threat might be enough to force structural changes. Quebec nearly left Canada twice and got massive concessions both times just from credible threats.
Option 4: International Intervention
This has never happened to a nuclear power, but there's a first time for everything. Blue states could request UN election monitoring. They could sign their own climate agreements with the EU. They could create alternate diplomatic channels.
California could request Canadian peacekeepers for 'election security.' New York could invite European observers for 'financial transparency.' Make it embarrassing. Make America's collapse visible to the world. Force the international community to pick sides.
No, the UN can't invade America. But they can isolate it. Sanctions work. Ask Russia. International humiliation works. Ask South Africa under apartheid.
We're past normal. The fascists already won round one. They control the institutions. They have their judges. They have their media ecosystem. They have their army of true believers who will excuse anything.
But they don't have the money. They don't have the cities. They don't have the educated workforce. They don't have the young. And most importantly, they don't have legitimacy in the eyes of the majority.
The historical record says once fascists gain power, they stay for 30-50 years. But the historical record doesn't have examples of fascists taking over a country where their opposition controls most of the economy, technology, and cultural production. We're in uncharted territory, which means we need unprecedented responses.
The question isn't whether these options are extreme. They are. The question is whether we're ready to admit that normal is already gone. The window to prevent fascism closed. But the opportunity for something else, something unprecedented, might just be opening.
The German conservatives who said 'we can control him' were all dead or fled within two years. We're just months into our version of this story. The question is: are we going to be the first generation that finds a new way out, or are we going to be another cautionary tale future historians write about?
At least we're finally asking the right questions."
- Chris Armitage
Tenney Naumer
There are very significant federal penalties for not making these deposits to the trust fund, as it is called, for federal income tax, Social Security tax, and Medicare taxes. Pretty sure state law will not protect employers from not paying into it.
What about withholdings for Social Security and Medicare? Will they be paid into the federal trust funds?
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Sara Robinson
SS and Medicare could certainly be on the table -- especially Medicare, if it were diverted to a statewide single-payer plan.
There would definitely need to be a collections regime set up -- but ADP and everybody else already knows where the California State Franchise Tax Board is, because they already send the state deductions there.
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Tenney Naumer
Sara Robinson What about the steep federal fines for not paying into the trust funds?
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Tenney Naumer
Sara Robinson Why would ADP put themselves at risk in all other states?
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Tenney Naumer
This idea has never been workable. It is a pipe dream.
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Sara Robinson
Tenney Naumer Ignore the trust funds. We're playing Calvinball now, not by our own choice. California's big enough that if push comes to shove, it gets to set its own terms, and choose to ignore what it wants to.
ADP would be facing stiff fines and sanctions in California if it failed to comply. Those would have to be large enough to be persuasive.
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Tenney Naumer
Oh sure, California can survive, but what about employers?
Federal Tax Laws (U.S.)
Internal Revenue Code (IRC) requires employers to collect and remit payroll taxes (income tax, Social Security, Medicare).
Failure to deposit those is considered "Trust Fund Recovery" violations since the employer holds that money in trust for the government.
Penalties:
IRS Trust Fund Recovery Penalty (IRC § 6672): Personal liability on company officers/owners who "willfully" failed to deposit.
Possible criminal charges for tax evasion, fraud, or willful failure to collect/pay over tax (26 U.S.C. § 7202).
Fines up to $10,000 and imprisonment up to 5 years.
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Steve Stearns
I mean we elected a fascist in 2016 and unelected him in 2020.
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Tenney Naumer
Given that keeping federal income tax back from the federal government is unworkable, I also looked some time ago at what other taxes the state of California pays to the federal government. A big one that pops up is the gasoline tax of $0.18/gallon. But this tax is levied at the point of manufacture. California refineries produce 42 million gallons per day. This is roughly $2.76 billion per year. Again, I really do not see how it would be workable, given that these companies (Chevron, Valero, Marathon) also operate in other states where they could be penalized.
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Kathryn Myronuk
I fear that many forms of "this is irreversible" has been Russian propaganda.
That's because we know that Putin's goals include breaking the US. He's carefully been making both sides* see the other side as irreversibly and unforgivably authoritarian.
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* Even today (this past weekend), I've spoken with progressives who can't steelman the arguments used to make moderates and moderate-rights fear the far left more than the far right. The progressives didn't know how to rearrange the letters "c," "p," and "c" to fit inside a sample steelman, for example.
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Chris Ladd
Poland has a parliament. If a government comes in and does a bunch of extreme or illegal stuff in a parliamentary democracy, a new government can win an election and, at least in principle, change things back. Our government doesn't work that way. Someone who's bold enough to loot the bureaucracy, stack the courts with lackeys, gut the military, and fill the security services with their goons *and get away with it without going to jail or getting hanged* can hold their gains more or less indefinitely. America's gentle leftists, the sweet summer children of global politics, keep pointing to Ellen Chenowith's magical 3.5% number like it's a real thing. The Irish model is probably the nearest to what's required here, and not the parts the author lists, but it will still take more "resistance" than what the Irish mustered. Unfortunately, the single most important factor in a successful fight is organization. The right has a little of it. The left has none. We're not even close to our John Brown moment here because the left still thinks elections matter, and still they're far too comfortable. I'm afraid things are going to get horribly worse before anyone of substance on the left even starts thinking about a real resistance. https://www.politicalorphans.com/theres-no-alternative.../
POLITICALORPHANS.COM
There's No Alternative to Regime Change
There's No Alternative to Regime Change
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Susan Manley
I think it's naive to think that they can't prosecute large swaths of people . I am betting they can change federal law in a heartbeat to enact some emergency legislation that allows them eminent domain and they can then seize the homes and businesses that don't pay and auction the ownership off. Realize these people are already warping reality to their liking … nothing is outside of what they want .
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